I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? What training or
checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix S-LSA
www.phoenixairusa.com I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
maintenance

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 20:45:47 +0000 (UTC), CF > wrote:

>I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
>this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? What training or
>checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix S-LSA
>www.phoenixairusa.com I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
>maintenance


See this link for more info:

http://www.soaringsafety.org/ssf-06/MG-certs.pdf

If your rating is unrestricted it was most likely not properly issued.

What about winch launch or auto tow. Do you think you can do those without
training also ??

have a read through FAR Part 61.31. See what applies to you. If you
received a motorglider certificate from the FAA before a certain date
(1997 I think) you do not need an endorsement to be legal.

On Jun 8, 2:15*pm, R-Haggerty > wrote:
>
> If your rating is unrestricted it was most likely not properly issued.


Nonsense!

In 79 I passed an FAA private flight test using aerotow. I was issued
private glider aerotow only. Later I passed a commercial flight test
using aerotow. I was issued commercial glider aerotow only. In 1981 I
passed commercial and CFI flight test using winch lauch. I was issued
and still, have "Glider" with no restriction on launch type. FAA does
not require me to have any further training to fly any glider launch
type including self launch, since I acted as pilot of command of a
self launch glider prior to the "grandfather" date.

My certificate is "unrestricted" and was properly issued.

Andy

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 14:47:24 -0700 (PDT), Andy > wrote:

>On Jun 8, 2:15*pm, R-Haggerty > wrote:
>>
>> If your rating is unrestricted it was most likely not properly issued.
>
>
>Nonsense!
>
>In 79 I passed an FAA private flight test using aerotow. I was issued
>private glider aerotow only. Later I passed a commercial flight test
>using aerotow. I was issued commercial glider aerotow only. In 1981 I
>passed commercial and CFI flight test using winch lauch. I was issued
>and still, have "Glider" with no restriction on launch type. FAA does
>not require me to have any further training to fly any glider launch
>type including self launch, since I acted as pilot of command of a
>self launch glider prior to the "grandfather" date.
>
>My certificate is "unrestricted" and was properly issued.
>
>Andy

That may be fine for you since you flew a self launch prior to the Grandfather
date, but the original poster did not mention that he flew self launch or any of
the other launch methods prior to the "date". I have seen DPE's issue a glider
cert without the "aerotow only" clause by mistake. Do you think the FAA
questions the application or do they just go ahead and process it.

On Jun 8, 4:55*pm, R-Haggerty > wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 14:47:24 -0700 (PDT), Andy > wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 2:15*pm, R-Haggerty > wrote:
>
> >> If your rating is unrestricted it was most likely not properly issued.
>
> >Nonsense!
>
> >In 79 I passed an FAA private flight test using aerotow. I was issued
> >private glider aerotow only. Later I passed a commercial flight test
> >using aerotow. I was issued commercial glider aerotow only. In 1981 I
> >passed commercial and CFI flight test using winch lauch. *I was issued
> >and still, have "Glider" with no restriction on launch type. *FAA does
> >not require me to have any further training to fly any glider launch
> >type including self launch, since I acted as pilot of command of a
> >self launch glider prior to the "grandfather" date.
>
> >My certificate is "unrestricted" and was properly issued.
>
> >Andy
>
> *That may be fine for you since you flew a self launch prior to the Grandfather
> date, but the original poster did not mention that he flew self launch or any of
> the other launch methods prior to the "date". *I have seen DPE's issue a glider
> cert without the "aerotow only" *clause by mistake. *Do you think the FAA
> questions the application or do they just go ahead and process it.

since 1997, issuing glider certificates WITH an "aerotow only" clause
would be a mistake

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 20:45:47 +0000 (UTC), CF > wrote:

>I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
>this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? What training or
>checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix S-LSA
>www.phoenixairusa.com I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
>maintenance

See also this link for opinions:

http://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training/licensing-faq

If you have the unrestricted glider rating than according to FAR 61.31.(j)(2)
you are good to go. However an insurance company may hold a diferent opinion as
to coverage.

On Jun 8, 4:45*pm, CF > wrote:
> I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
> this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? *What training or
> checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix *S-LSAwww.phoenixairusa.com*I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
> maintenance

If you have not had the training that would qualify you for the self
launch endorsment, you are unlikely to be
qualified to fly the motorglider anyway.
Take the time to get the training, you will be safer for having done
so and avoid any potential insurance issues.
The FAA instituted the endorsement process as a practical and
relatively painless way to handle this issue.

FWIW
UH

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 20:45:47 +0000 (UTC), CF > wrote:

>I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
>this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? What training or
>checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix S-LSA
>www.phoenixairusa.com I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
>maintenance


If you seek proper training you could follow these guidelines

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2061-94/$FILE/ac61-94.pdf

On Jun 8, 1:45*pm, CF > wrote:
> I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
> this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? *What training or
> checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix *S-LSAwww.phoenixairusa.com*I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
> maintenance

Please define what you mean by "unrestricted glider rating", please
forgive my non knowledge of any reference to 1994 as it would apply to
gliders, unless that is the date the FAA changed their certification
practices.

Older glider certificates were issued with "aero tow only" or "ground/
winch launch only" restrictions. Those were removed in the 90s and the
certificate simply says "glider. The type of launch method authorized
or approved is now an instructor endorsement under 61.31(j).

You are still governed under 61.31(j) and would need a logbook
endorsement from a qualified glider instructor for "self launch".

At 03:38 09 June 2011, T wrote:
>Older glider certificates were issued with "aero tow only" or
"ground/
>winch launch only" restrictions. Those were removed in the 90s and the
>certificate simply says "glider.

My original license was issued in 1970, it simply says "glider". The
aero tow and ground launch restrictions on the license came much later,
mid-80s I believe. Since I did do some auto tows back then, I was
grandfathered for ground launch, but I considered it very worthwhile to
get training and an endorsement for winch launch 6 or 7 years ago...

Marc

On Jun 8, 4:45*pm, CF > wrote:
> I've an unrestricted private glider rating issused before 1994.. I believe
> this measns I don't need a self launch endorsement? *What training or
> checkrides would I need to pilot a motorgliner like the Phoenix *S-LSAwww.phoenixairusa.com*I'm also an A&P I should be able to no my own
> maintenance

You want to be legal or safe?
My recomendation would be to get a self launch endorsement from a CFI
that normally does power instruction who also has a glider rating
(CFIG). It's a power plane with a good glide ratio (that should get
the discussion off track) treat it like one. The time you spend with
the CFI should be fun and relativley cheap compared to the original
purchase price and the repair cost for the plane and yourself.

SF

get a self launch endorsement from a CFI
> that normally does power instruction who also has a glider rating
> (CFIG). *

For the USA. Note that for the CFI with glider category to instruct
in self-launch sailplanes s/he must also have self-launch endorsement
or be "grandfathered" by FAR 61.31(j).
Finding a CFIG who has experience in that make and model self-launch
sailplane is another story, and your insurance underwriters may want
to add requirements.

Rather than debate it, just go get the proper training from a CFIG
with lots of recent experience, not just someone who flew one like
yours once prior to August 4, 1997 and therefore is "grandfathered
in." Be safe and proficient and that will reflect well on the sport
of soaring and perhaps keep the FAA from future twiddling with the
rules.

There are several good CFIG who can give you the training. Look at
the SSA website under "Where to Fly" and the Auxiliary Sailplane
Association (ASA) website for a list of CFIG's who can train you to
fly self-launch sailplanes safely.

I got my self-launch endorsement from "Glider Bob" Saunders
(Telluride. Colorado) in a Stemme. Stephen Dee also teaches in self-
launch (in a Scheibe) and does FAA glider pilot checkrides as a
Designated Pilot Examiner in Memphis, Tennessee. I'm sure others on
this group can recommend a qualified CFIG for your self-launch
endorsement.

Burt
Marfa, Texas USA

On Jun 9, 11:27*am, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
> get a self launch endorsement from a CFI
>
> > that normally does power instruction who also has a glider rating
> > (CFIG). *
>
> For the USA. *Note that for the CFI with glider category to instruct
> in self-launch sailplanes s/he must also have self-launch endorsement
> or be "grandfathered" by FAR 61.31(j).
> Finding a CFIG who has experience in that make and model self-launch
> sailplane is another story, and your insurance underwriters may want
> to add requirements.
>
> Rather than debate it, just go get the proper training from a CFIG
> with lots of recent experience, not just someone who flew one like
> yours once prior to August 4, 1997 and therefore is "grandfathered
> in." * Be safe and proficient and that will reflect well on the sport
> of soaring and perhaps keep the FAA from future twiddling with the
> rules.
>
> There are several good CFIG who can give you the training. * Look at
> the SSA website under "Where to Fly" and the Auxiliary Sailplane
> Association (ASA) website for a list of CFIG's who can train you to
> fly self-launch sailplanes safely.
>
> I got my self-launch endorsement from "Glider Bob" Saunders
> (Telluride. Colorado) in a Stemme. * Stephen Dee also teaches in self-
> launch (in a Scheibe) and does FAA glider pilot checkrides as a
> Designated Pilot Examiner in Memphis, Tennessee. * I'm sure others on
> this group can recommend a qualified CFIG for your self-launch
> endorsement.
>
> Burt
> Marfa, Texas * *USA

Agree that's good advice. The situation on the need for additional
training seems to have become confused by the current revision of CFR
14 part 61.

It now says "The holder of a glider rating issued prior to August 4,
1997, is considered to be in compliance with the training and logbook
endorsement requirements of this paragraph for the specific operating
privilege for which the holder is already qualified."

However, it provides no information or requirements relating to how it
is determined that the holder is already qualified.

An earlier version of CFR 14 part 61 had verbiage similar to "has
logged pilot in command time in self launch gliders prior to (date)".
So far I have not found an old part 61 version that contains that
wording, but it was similar to the existing exception clause for tail
wheel aircraft endorsements. (Anyone have that old version handy?)

Given that the specific exception referencing pilot in command time
has been eliminated, how is one to prove that one is already qualified
unless the log book includes an FAA flight test, or instructor
endorsement, which mine does not.

BTW with over 3000 hours in gliders and over 2000 in airplanes I see
no value in doing training in a touring motor glider in preparation
for flying a single seat pylon self launcher. Spending a few hours
with a pilot experienced in the specific self launcher would be far
more valuable.

Andy